55 replies to this topic

[Nanizm]

EvenSteven, on 07 February 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I call this Bullshit!! So if the Lakers win then Kobe wins it for them, and if they lose then it's because the other guys stink?
Kobe 1-10 in the 4th...at some fucking point, being such a smart player that he is, he should try to work some give and go, some pick and roll for a lob to Andrew or something.  
The Lakers only won in Denver because after he went 7-23, Kobe at least knew to stop and worked something inside with the big guys.
Yeah yeah I know the Lakers fucking would be like 9-16 without Kobe but fuck, when you don't have it, you gotta know when to fucking stop shooting.

Lakers win AND lose with what Kobe does. Kobe not hitting shots at the end is a reason (along with others) why they lost that game in Phily. They were also in it because of him. If he hits just a few more of those shots the Lakers win, but he missed so they lose. I have always said, that is the way it should be and has always been and will continue to be.

A scorer’s mentality is the next shot is going in…Kobe, and great scorers like him don’t know, or better said, think he doesn’t have it “going”. He doesn’t think the next shot isn’t going in. If he had it going in the first half, why would he believe that he couldn’t get it going in the 2nd half? He can go and hit 8 straight as easy as he misses 8 straight. His job is to score. Its easy for you guys to criticize AFTER the game when you see the results, playing Monday Morning Quarterback. There is no such thing as a scorer KNOWING he is not on or that him being able to predict that he is going to go 1 for 10 in a quarter, unless they are hurt or sick. That thought should not even enter your mind.

[Nanizm]

EvenSteven, on 07 February 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

I got your sarcasm immediately....but you know I think Kobe is like a demigod, half man, half god.  He comes down from Mount Olympus during the basketball season just to play for the Lakers.

He is fucking beyond criticism!!

He is god like. 5th all time scorer (likely end up 3rd), 16 years playing and still leading the league in scoring and one of the best in the game STILL after all this time, 5 rings (with 2 different squads), 2 Finals MVPs, 7 finals appearances, on and on.

I wouldn’t say that Kobe is beyond reproach but he’s pretty close considering his resume. It really depends on what your criticism is about Kobe.

Saying he shoots too much or when he doesn’t hit shots that he should have done something else is weak and absurd arguments.

If you want to say that the Lakers lost a game, like in phily, because he had a bad quarter shooting. Even if you say he shot poorly for the entire game or he was killed by his man, those are probably valid if that is what occurred in the game. But like ive always said, you want wins and losses to be on Kobe because he is your superstar and has rich history of coming through with playing the way he plays.

Its very simple.

[EvenSteven]

Nanizm, on 07 February 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

He is god like. 5th all time scorer (likely end up 3rd), 16 years playing and still leading the league in scoring and one of the best in the game STILL after all this time, 5 rings (with 2 different squads), 2 Finals MVPs, 7 finals appearances, on and on.

I wouldn’t say that Kobe is beyond reproach but he’s pretty close considering his resume. It really depends on what your criticism is about Kobe.

Saying he shoots too much or when he doesn’t hit shots that he should have done something else is weak and absurd arguments.

If you want to say that the Lakers lost a game, like in phily, because he had a bad quarter shooting. Even if you say he shot poorly for the entire game or he was killed by his man, those are probably valid if that is what occurred in the game. But like ive always said, you want wins and losses to be on Kobe because he is your superstar and has rich history of coming through with playing the way he plays.

Its very simple.

I am not implying that the Lakers lost because Kobe didn't know when to stop.  They win or lose as a team, and Kobe is Kobe, he hasn't changed his ways of operating in 16 years.  I am saying that Kobe can be critique like everyone else.  Kobe usually gets a lot of credit when the Lakers win, and by the same token, he should carry much of the blame when they lose.  This would especially apply by the way they lost last night.

[Los Lakers]

If you guys watched the post-game show with James Worthy, he himself said that (Kobe) forced too many shots at the end of the fourth and that he should have acknowledged that there are also 4 other players on the floor with him. He said more, but that was the main point I wanted to make here. Kobe will always be praised for being Kobe, but he can still make mistakes and like Steven said, he can still be criticized for making mistakes just like we criticize all players (great or not) for mistakes they make. I agree with everyone here, including James Worthy that Kobe forced too many shots during those last few minutes of the fourth. I'm sorry Nanizm doesn't see it that way, but it's the truth. does saying that he shot too much at certain times take away his greatness? Of course not. I just dont get how some people get overly sensitive when Kobe gets criticized when he does make mistakes. Kobe is my favorite Laker player, but I would criticize any player no matter who it was if they played well throughout the game, but then in the last minutes they decided to go solo and forget about teamwork and cause the team to lose the lead on forced shots and eventually lose the game. I know Im going to get bombarded by Nanizm with more Kobe praises and stats, but oh well, that's how I feel about last nights game.  

[Nanizm]

EvenSteven, on 07 February 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I am not implying that the Lakers lost because Kobe didn't know when to stop.  They win or lose as a team, and Kobe is Kobe, he hasn't changed his ways of operating in 16 years.  I am saying that Kobe can be critique like everyone else.  Kobe usually gets a lot of credit when the Lakers win, and by the same token, he should carry much of the blame when they lose.  This would especially apply by the way they lost last night.

I never said he can’t be criticized; you guys do it all the time. He has been getting criticized for years on message boards and by analyst. I just point out when the criticism is misplaced or ridiculous. I also never said he shouldn’t be blamed for losses. I say you win and lose with the way he plays, i.e. shooting a lot, at times taking over games, at times missing many shots. So far this formula has paid off like no other Lakers player in history. Enjoy more of the same.

[Nanizm]

Los Lakers, on 07 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

If you guys watched the post-game show with James Worthy, he himself said that (Kobe) forced too many shots at the end of the fourth and that he should have acknowledged that there are also 4 other players on the floor with him.

James has an opinion, as do I and many others that cover the NBA that have my line of thinking. Jalon Rose for one. They werent forced shots, they were shots that Kobe can make and arent that difficult for him, he just missed. He missed and Lakers lost. In hindsight, sure Kobe shouldnt have taken those shots and since we know he missed them, it probably better if he passed since it could have been possible tht someone else could have made them. Everybody is smarter in hindsight of course.

Los Lakers, on 07 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Kobe will always be praised for being Kobe, but he can still make mistakes and like Steven said, he can still be criticized for making mistakes just like we criticize all players (great or not) for mistakes they make

I never said he cant be critized. I just think its silly to critisize about stuff in hindsight or question what Kobe does on the court when its something he's done his entire career. When I read or hear someone say he shoots too much or he needs to change his game Infuriates me to no end.  

Los Lakers, on 07 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I'm sorry Nanizm doesn't see it that way, but it's the truth.

Its an opinion, not the truth.

[Chito]

Nanizm, on 07 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Its an opinion, not the truth.

Actually, he DID force too many shots during those last few minutes in the fourth. That's not an opinion, it's the truth whether you wish to accept it or not Naz. Bring me all of Kobe's stats all you want, it won't change the fact that he forced too many shots because he was frustrated with Williams outplaying the Lakers, so he wanted to show him up, but unfortunately, his shots didn't go through, but he kept on forcing them and forcing them while the rest of the team looked on.

[Archer]

Chito, on 07 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Actually, he DID force too many shots during those last few minutes in the fourth. That's not an opinion, it's the truth whether you wish to accept it or not Naz. Bring me all of Kobe's stats all you want, it won't change the fact that he forced too many shots because he was frustrated with Williams outplaying the Lakers, so he wanted to show him up, but unfortunately, his shots didn't go through, but he kept on forcing them and forcing them while the rest of the team looked on.

I agree, you can tell Kobe was visibly pissed at Williams running circles around the Lakers towards the end and Kobe was trying to somehow "teach him a lesson"? Too bad Kobe ran out of gas by then.

[Nanizm]

Chito, on 07 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

actually, he DID force too many shots during those last few minutes in the fourth. That's not an opinion, it's the truth whether you don't wish to accept it or not Naz.

Truth is a verified or indisputable fact. I dont see an official NBA stat that shows "forced" shots. I am disputing your notion that they were forced shots so how can it be the truth. Its an opinion, even if it is the overwelming majority that holds that opinion.

He probably was going back at Lou and felt the need to carry the Lakers back into the game. We've seen it b4 when he gets in these battles with players. Thats Kobe for you.

[Chito]

Yea yea yea and Kobe is the second coming of Christ. He forced his shots.

[Los Lakers]

Chito, on 07 February 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yea yea yea and Kobe is the second coming of Christ. He forced his shots.

[EvenSteven]

Nanizm, on 07 February 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

I never said he can’t be criticized; you guys do it all the time. He has been getting criticized for years on message boards and by analyst. I just point out when the criticism is misplaced or ridiculous. I also never said he shouldn’t be blamed for losses. I say you win and lose with the way he plays, i.e. shooting a lot, at times taking over games, at times missing many shots. So far this formula has paid off like no other Lakers player in history. Enjoy more of the same.

Kobe, one of the greatest and still one of the hardest worker in the association.  His work ethics is what I've always admired about him.
With that said, the only legit criticism of Kobe is his forcing shots and completely ignoring his teammates.  He's is done this time and time again over the years.
Granted he is Kobe, and nobody would mind if he launched 50 shots against a triple team, if he had a good stroke going.  But when you're ice cold in the entire second half, a smart player, an unselfish player, would be inclined to work a play going to the basket with his fellow 2012 allstar Andrew Bynum.
How is this particular criticism misplaced??

[Nanizm]

EvenSteven, on 07 February 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Kobe, one of the greatest and still one of the hardest worker in the association.  His work ethics is what I've always admired about him.
With that said, the only legit criticism of Kobe is his forcing shots and completely ignoring his teammates.  He's is done this time and time again over the years.
Granted he is Kobe, and nobody would mind if he launched 50 shots against a triple team, if he had a good stroke going.  But when you're ice cold in the entire second half, a smart player, an unselfish player, would be inclined to work a play going to the basket with his fellow 2012 allstar Andrew Bynum.
How is this particular criticism misplaced??

Because in Kobe’s mind he is the best option and he knows he is drilling that shot no matter how many times he has missed up to taking that shot. This mentality is what makes Kobe the killer that he is and has always been. Its this mentality that gives him the balls to even attempt to take last second shots or put up 40 shots if needed (in his mind). Its what separates the mentally that Lebron has where he chokes in the big moments and what guys like Jordon and Kobe have. How do we (you guys) then ask him to not be that in certain moments when he fails to come through? It is only because you know he fails after the fact that you can then look back and say he should have done something else.

[EvenSteven]

Nanizm, on 07 February 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Because in Kobe’s mind he is the best option and he knows he is drilling that shot no matter how many times he has missed up to taking that shot. This mentality is what makes Kobe the killer that he is and has always been. Its this mentality that gives him the balls to even attempt to take last second shots or put up 40 shots if needed (in his mind). Its what separates the mentally that Lebron has where he chokes in the big moments and what guys like Jordon and Kobe have. How do we (you guys) then ask him to not be that in certain moments when he fails to come through? It is only because you know he fails after the fact that you can then look back and say he should have done something else.

2-14 in the second half, 1-10 in the fourth, shut out in the crucial moments while teammates watched.  Jordan did pass off to Steve Kerr, to Paxson for crucial game winning shots.
How is this criticism misplaced?

[Archer]

This is what I see in this thread and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere:

0 - Kobe should have involved his teammates more...

Kobe is great, he should shoot whenever he wants

0 - Kobe should have kept the same pace and not try to do too much on his own...

Kobe is great, he should shoot whenever he wants

0 - Kobe was clearly forcing too many shots, he should have passed a bit more...

Kobe is great, he should shoot whenever he wants

0 - a much greater leader involves his teammates and makes them better...

Kobe is great, he should shoot whenever he wants

....maybe great players also listen to reason and make changes to better the team instead of just trying to better themselves.

[Hayter]

i don't have a problem with kobe shooting all those shots.  he deserves to shoot A LOT.  the problem is, in the first quarter, kobe was taking good shots.  in the 4th, kobe was taking really difficult shots..  really low percentage shots..  forced shots..  as much as he kept them in the game, he also shot them out of it.  we need a happy medium.